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Pat G., May 21, [year unknown] (Tape 2)
Pat shows family photos. She says several of her family members were gay, including her mother and brother. She talks about bars, the 557 and 217, with racially mixed clientele. She describes violence when straight men tried to dance with gay women. She mentions other favorite bars from the 1950s: the Chesterfield, the KittyCat, Club Coco, the 469. Pat describes her relationships, many of which involved "messing around on and off" for many years. She describes coming out to her mother at age 13, and talks about the "white girls from Canada" (lesbians) who were her mother's friends. -
Dorothy, October 2, 1981 (Tape 1)
Side A: Dorothy discusses her personal life and how she came to discover that she was a lesbian. She talks about her marriage and separation. She discusses her relationships with women, all of which were long-term. Dorothy talks about her job in engineering as a tool designer and the fact that she performed a man's work for a man's salary. She discusses lesbian social life during the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s and names several popular bars including Eddy's Tavern, Ralph Martin. She talks about her developing alcoholism and the prominence of this disease among lesbians in general, perhaps as a result of their uncertainty about life. Dorothy also talks about butch and femme roles in lesbianism, stating that she doesn't identify herself with either role despite the fact that the butches identified her as one of them.
Side B: Dorothy continues the discussion of roles in lesbianism and the division between the two groups in bars. She says that her "crowd" did not distinguish between these two groups and she ultimately stopped going to bars, partly as a result of the need for role division. She discusses in some depth her problem with alcohol and talks about her membership in Alcoholics Anonymous. She talks about how she decided that she was a lesbian and gives further details about her first relationship. She also speculates on whether or not other people knew she was a lesbian, including her mother and acquaintances such as her landlord. She says that she has never had any problems with people discriminating against her. Dorothy also continues to talk about the social dynamics of bars in Buffalo. -
Pat G., May 21, [year unknown] (Tape 1)
Side A: Pat discusses her experiences as an African American lesbian. She developed friendships and relationships with both white and black gay women in the 1950s. She denies there were any racial tension in the Buffalo lesbian community; Pat says her experience was very inclusive. She also discusses experiencing police harassment, but says that she longer experiences discrimination from law enforcement. Pat discusses her wardrobe in the 1950s, which was composed of mens' clothing, and where she used to shop.
Side B: Pat discusses her friendship and romantic relationship with Jerry Jones, a male impersonator, who was well known in the 1950s Buffalo lesbian community. Pat discusses her move to Albany, N.Y., in the late 1950s and the birth of her daughter in 1957. She also mentions her experiences at after-hour bars which were only open to African Americans. While she used to frequent them in her early years, she no longer goes. Pat identifies as a butch lesbian and discusses the differences between butches and femmes. When she was younger she did not allow her partner to touch her during sex, but is much more open to the idea now. According to Pat, many butch lesbians did not receive sexual contact from their partners. -
Paula, January 18, 1990 (Tape 2)
Paula describes the absence of love and romance in her relationships with women, but later in the interviews describes a relationship after her divorce. She mentions one-night stands and sexual experiences she had with friends, and the importance of these friendships to her. Paula mentions that she was married and had children, and would go out to bars at night with her friends or alone. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 3)
Side A: Pat and DJ discuss the characteristics of femme identity. The interviewers say they are looking to interview more femmes, which leads to a discussion of the names and locations of lesbians who were a part of the community in the 1940s. The interviewers also mention the difficulties of interviewing lesbians who have not come out. The group discusses why butches are more willing to talk. Pat talks about her time at the Good Shepherd home. There is a brief discussion about the role of lesbians in World War II.
Cut off at 0:14:55
Side B: The group continues their discussion of the interview process, including who is willing to talk and who is not, as well as who will use their names and who will not. There is more discussion about beatings. Pat tells of coming out to her mother. Her mother only worries about the violence Pat is subjected to, on account of being butch. There is a long discussion about the nature of breakups and their aftermath. The group discusses the role of third parties in most breakups and the way a butch or femme reacts to a breakup. The issue of "passing" comes up, and Pat talks about working as a cab driver and passing as a man. Often, the children of femmes did not know that their mothers' partners were actually women. The interview concludes with a description of the rules for asking other butches' girlfriends to dance, and the fights that sometimes ensued. This point in the discussion highlights the difference between the generation of the interviewees and the generation of the interviewers. -
Mary K., December 12, 1981
Side A: Mary discusses her experiences in the gay community in Buffalo in the 1950s. She discusses in detail the gay bar scene and describes the clientele at the Carousel, Bingo's, and the Chesterfield. The interviewee also describes the dynamic of the relationships she experienced and observed in terms of both race and gender identity. Mary also discusses prostitution in the Buffalo community during the 1950s. She describes some of her own sexual and relationship experiences.
Side B: Continuing the conversation from Side A, Mary discusses in more detail the types of people she observed in the various bars in Buffalo, as well as her family. She explains that she got along with her family, but never came out to them, in spite of which her father never questioned her about her relationships or pressured her to get married. She also discusses the socio-economic status of various gay communities throughout Buffalo. Both the interviewer and the interviewee discuss butch and femme identities within the larger context of the lesbian community in Buffalo. Mary speaks in more detail about her social experiences. -
Mary Ann, October 15, 1988 (Tape 2)
Mary Ann talks about posing as a prostitute for men in a straight bar. She would arrange a meet-up location and then she and two girl friends would overpower and rob men. She describes several muggings she and her two friends carried out. One happened in a hotel; another took place in a man's house with his family there. She claims she and her friends never hurt anybody "more than they had to." Mary Ann also talks about the distinction between gay bars and bars where she would go to hustle. Gay bars were places to have fun with friends and not for prostitution. In one aside, the interviewer asks Mary Ann why she calls her girlfriend "my man," to which she replies that's the way her lover wanted to be addressed. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 2)
Side A: Pat and DJ continue the discussion of relationships during the 1950s from tape cassette SPW457. The two women discuss aspects of how to make relationships long-lasting and the importance or lack thereof of sexual intimacy in relationships. Both Pat and DJ discuss personal opinions related to intimacy in relationships, particularly in long-term relationships. The discussion then turns to types of attraction and intimacy.
Side B: Pat and DJ continue to discuss relationships during the 1950s and talk about reasons for breaking up. The discussion revolves around the importance of taking care of a woman and being able to satisfy her needs. The two women discuss the negative stigma of cheating. The discussion turns to take pride in a partner and the importance of her appearance and physical presence. Pat and DJ also talk about the presence of violence during relationships in the 1950s, listing insecurity between partners as the main reason. The two women speak specifically of violence in bars as a result of talking to another woman’s lady or challenging femmes in relationships to talk to other women. They discuss how much of this behavior was learned from lesbian role models of the 1940s. -
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Paula, January 18, 1990 (Tape 1)
Side A: Paula describes various locations where gay men and women would meet each other, like Kleinman's Corner and bars such as Ralph Martin's. Often these locations also served as hubs for sex workers. She speaks about the rigidly defined roles of "butch" and "femme" provided for lesbians during the 1940s. Paula talks about her life as femme and being married to a man who introduced her to gay/lesbian life. She discusses her sexual life and the type of sex that women had with each other in the 1940s, specifically within the strict binary of butch and femme. Paula recalls the social life at bars, such as Ralph Martin's, which included dancing, drag shows, prostitution, and drugs.
Side B: Paula speaks about her family life in relation to her sexual identity. She talks about her husband's fast lifestyle and her changing preferences eventually causing the dissolution of their marriage. Paula mentions the types of employment she has had, including working in department stores, as a waitress, as a desk clerk at the Genesee Hotel, and on the assembly line at Bell Aircraft. She speaks more about various bars that she went to: Pat's, Dugan's, the Carousel, and the Carlton Hotel. She talks about a long-term relationship that she had, after her divorce, that lasted ten years, as well as traveling out of the Buffalo area to places like Florida, California, and Utica, N.Y.
The recording cuts off abruptly after 23 minutes. -
Pat, June 6, 1978 (Tape 2)
Side A: Pat talks about her childhood in North Port, N.Y., her relationship with her parents and siblings. She goes into detail about her estranged relationship with her older sister. She describes when she first knew that she was a lesbian and tells the history of her relationships with women. She starts with her first affair at age 13, with a nun from her Catholic school - Sister Eugenie - to a relationship she had with Maryann (Marty). She describes her time at nursing school in Niagara Falls, N.Y., and the gay bars she frequented until she moved to Florida with her then girlfriend. She says she moved to Buffalo, N.Y., in the late 1950s, and describes the Buffalo bar scene, mentioning Dingles, Mardi Gras, the Chesterfield, the Carousel and the Carol Hotel. Pat mentions that the Carousel was very elite, something she did not like. This leads her into a discussion on “role play†and how important it was to distinguish oneself as either a butch or a femme. She classified herself as butch, but stated that she was very uncomfortable with the label and now prefers to be less overt.
Side B: In this interview Pat talks about how she does not like or feel comfortable in the gay community. She has never identified with it, or been made to feel welcome. This is one of the reasons that she does not maintain friendships with other lesbians, unless she is having a sexual relationship with them. She mentions being victimized and physically assaulted because she was a butch lesbian. Interviewer Madeline enters the discussion, speaking about her own sexual experiences with women. Madeline classifies Pat as “untouchable,†something that Pat denies, stating that she is simply very private. She feels that sex is a necessary but not important part of a relationship; it is something that is never sought or welcomed. She is suspicious of those who claim to experience sexual pleasure, including Madeline. -
Pat and DJ, November 11, 1986 (Tape 1)
Side A: Liz and Madeline ask Pat and DJ for feedback on a draft of "Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold." Pat claims the book paints too rosy a picture of lesbian life, underplaying the prejudice most lesbians encountered in the 1940s and '50s. Both talk about the Buffalo bar scene in the 1940s and '50s: mentioned are Carousel, Bingo's, the Chesterfield, Ralph Martin's, the Mardi Gras, and the Midtown. The discussion shifts to relationships, faithfulness, and prostitutes.
Recording has loud feedback sounds and squeaks at the beginning.
Side B: Pat and DJ discuss bar denizens vs. lesbians who did not frequent bars and the "class" distinction there, and also the way non-butch lesbians looked down on butches. DJ describes how her long-term relationships were analogous to marriage, where she was the breadwinner and her partners were housewives who perhaps worked but did not "provide." Both discuss the fact that in the 1940s and '50s butches had the freedom to have affairs whereas femmes were expected to be faithful. This created an atmosphere of mistrust in which monogamous long-term relationships became very difficult.
Recording has loud squeaks at the beginning, hisses throughout, and cuts off abruptly at the end. -
Mary Ann, October 15, 1988 (Tape 1)
Side A: Mary Ann discusses her experiences going out in public with her girlfriends, and the treatment they receive at restaurants, bars, and on the street. She mentions that their public treatment is very often instigated by the masculine way her partners are dressed; she herself has always been very femme. Mary Ann talks about her incarceration for robbery, and her time in a psychiatric hospital for depression and attempted suicide.
Side B: Mary Ann continues to discuss her time in jail. She took on a butch look, and began to receive small gifts under her cell door from femme girls in other divisions. She developed relationships with different girls that she worked with while in jail, and talks about lookouts, or "chickies," standing watch for girls who were with their partners in the showers or elsewhere. She then talks about her sex life with a long-term partner of 22 years, with whom she raised foster children. Later, she touches on her job as a dancer at Buffalo clubs, and a two-year period when she worked as a prostitute. -
Joan, September 11, 1978 (Tape 1)
Side A: Joan discusses the distinction between butch and femme lesbians, the differences between the white and black gay communities, the Buffalo lesbian bar scene, and coming out in the 1960s.
Side B: Joan discusses the class divisions in the lesbian community, the university gay scene, and her personal, professional, and romantic history. -
Linda, November 19, 1978 (Tape 1)
Linda talks about her relationships and the idea there are no longer clearly defined lesbian roles (i.e. butch and femme) in relationships, as there were when she first came out in the 1960s. She describes her family life growing up and when she came out to her family. -
Joe, April 18, 1979 (Tape 1)
Side A: Joe talks about the social atmosphere in the 1920s through the 1940s. He talks about Service Clubs and Music Circles as vehicles for social interaction but claims not to know of any exclusively gay or lesbian social groups. He also talks about the one gay bar in town in the 1930s and '40s and calls it "middle class at best."
Side B: Joe talks about social clubs (all men's clubs) and how gay society functioned within these clubs. He also talked about sports and gay women at the time.